Email interview with Dr. Bryan Mark Rigg
What follows is my email interview of Dr. Bryan Mark Rigg, his book was the subject of an earlier post this week. Perhaps to get a proper background on Dr. Bryan Mark Rigg and to understand his fascination with the subject of his two recent books you should read this amazing biographical note. Below are Bryan Rigg�s opinions, I don�t have any opinions. In fact I feel uncomfortable with some of the anecdotes and conclusions; you might say that I disagree with some of the conclusions. But here what Bryan actually wrote:
Tzemach Atlas: Hi Bryan, I am not sure you know but Barry Gourary passed away last week. Perhaps you can write a short snippet if you had contacts with him.
Bryan Mark Rigg: Sad news. Thanks for the update. If I were to write something, it would go like this: �I met with Barry Gourary in 2003 and interviewed him for my most recent book �Rescued From the Reich: How One of Hitler�s Soldiers Saved the Lubavitcher Rebbe.� I also talked to him several times throughout 2003 and 2004 on the phone. Since Gourary was there when the German soldiers came to rescue him and his grandfather in 1939 out of Warsaw, he proved an invaluable witness to this World War II event. He was extremely helpful and gave me an honest view of Chabad and its political dealings. Being a direct relative of Menachem Mendel Schneerson, he had a very interesting take on his uncle the Rebbe. He felt that he was just as human as each one of us and that Menachem Mendel Schneerson made mistakes with how he went about getting the appointment of being a Rebbe. He even went so far to claim that his grandfather was not pleased with several things Menachem Mendel did, like going to secular university, not wearing his skullcap and not treating his duties to the movement seriously when he was a young man.
These views of Chabad coming from a direct descendant of the Rebbes were invaluable for a historian. It showed more than anything how ahistorical and even �dishonest� to use Gourary words, many in the movement are about their past and about their beliefs about their leadership. And although he revered his grandfather, Rebbe Joseph Isaac Schneersohn, and did not see any fault with him, he did help me to see the movement in a more balance way. There are many sides to any story, and Chabad tends to always stay on the side of glorifying. Even though Menachem Mendel Schneerson said, according to the scribe Yosef Yitzak Jacobson, that he �preferred the ugly truth to beautiful lies,� Gourary testimony showed more than anything that the movement in general is incapable of seeing both the bad and good of its movement. This statement about truth and lies of the Rebbe is taken from Plato actually. But Plato said it in reverse claiming that most people like living with beautiful lies instead of the bitter truth. And from my experience with Chabad, this is what its members do�they prefer beautiful lies about their movement instead of the bitter truth that there were mistakes done, personality conflicts and cover-ups throughout its history. The story of the rescue and what the Rebbe did with it shows this characteristic of Chabad like nothing else. So Barry was one of the people of many who really opened my eyes to this aspect of Chabad.�
Tzemach Atlas: Bryan, please clarify this point: �The story of the rescue and what the Rebbe did with it shows this characteristic of Chabad like nothing else.�
Bryan Mark Rigg: It basically means that the Rebbe of course wanted to escape Europe and had his movement employ every means, even approaching the Secretary of State, to get him out, but when he was here in the US, he did not approach those very same people to help rescue those who had to remain in Europe. However, he did approach those people in the government to rescue his library, which he did get out in 1941. Are books more important than people? Some of the books were secular like Dante's Inferno and books on Communism. This is a sad part of the history of the Rebbe. Also he started condemning people who were organizing amazing rescue efforts like rabbis Kotler and Kalmanowitz of the Vad-Haatzala.
He claimed they and Reform and Kofrim Jews were causing the Holocaust with their non-Kosher ways. Yet, we see that Kotler and Kalmanowitz helped rescue up to 100,000 people with the War Refugee Board. The Rebbe felt they were unnecessarily compromising their religious integrity by meeting with politicians on the Sabbath and secular and reform leaders. So the Rebbe made mistakes and according to Chancellor or Yeshiva University, Norman Lamm, he committed blasphemy by claiming God was punishing the Jews for their sins with the Holocaust. He claims this is a desecration of God's name (Menachem Mendel Schneerson also said that saying such a thing is a desecration of God's name without mentioning his father-in-law). These facts and many more show how much Chabad does to ignore unpleasant facts about their history. They just claim that when people write such things, they are jealous of their movement, do not understand their people or on a political campaign to smear them. Very weak arguments and signs of inferiority complexes. So basically this story shows that instead of pointing fingers, we need to act and make a difference. Small minds blame others; big ones blame themselves and then seek out action to make the situation better.
What people wanted was a hero of the Jewish people fighting for their rights. Instead, the Rebbe just thought of himself and his movement and condemned others. He was not helping the problem, but creating more. He should have worked with Kotler and Kalmanowitz, or at least have tried to, instead of condemning them and a host of others.
Does this help to clarify things? I send you an email earlier saying you may use my email, but it bounced back.
I hope all is well,
Bryan
Tzemach Atlas: Hi Bryan, I am not sure you know but Barry Gourary passed away last week. Perhaps you can write a short snippet if you had contacts with him.
Bryan Mark Rigg: Sad news. Thanks for the update. If I were to write something, it would go like this: �I met with Barry Gourary in 2003 and interviewed him for my most recent book �Rescued From the Reich: How One of Hitler�s Soldiers Saved the Lubavitcher Rebbe.� I also talked to him several times throughout 2003 and 2004 on the phone. Since Gourary was there when the German soldiers came to rescue him and his grandfather in 1939 out of Warsaw, he proved an invaluable witness to this World War II event. He was extremely helpful and gave me an honest view of Chabad and its political dealings. Being a direct relative of Menachem Mendel Schneerson, he had a very interesting take on his uncle the Rebbe. He felt that he was just as human as each one of us and that Menachem Mendel Schneerson made mistakes with how he went about getting the appointment of being a Rebbe. He even went so far to claim that his grandfather was not pleased with several things Menachem Mendel did, like going to secular university, not wearing his skullcap and not treating his duties to the movement seriously when he was a young man.
These views of Chabad coming from a direct descendant of the Rebbes were invaluable for a historian. It showed more than anything how ahistorical and even �dishonest� to use Gourary words, many in the movement are about their past and about their beliefs about their leadership. And although he revered his grandfather, Rebbe Joseph Isaac Schneersohn, and did not see any fault with him, he did help me to see the movement in a more balance way. There are many sides to any story, and Chabad tends to always stay on the side of glorifying. Even though Menachem Mendel Schneerson said, according to the scribe Yosef Yitzak Jacobson, that he �preferred the ugly truth to beautiful lies,� Gourary testimony showed more than anything that the movement in general is incapable of seeing both the bad and good of its movement. This statement about truth and lies of the Rebbe is taken from Plato actually. But Plato said it in reverse claiming that most people like living with beautiful lies instead of the bitter truth. And from my experience with Chabad, this is what its members do�they prefer beautiful lies about their movement instead of the bitter truth that there were mistakes done, personality conflicts and cover-ups throughout its history. The story of the rescue and what the Rebbe did with it shows this characteristic of Chabad like nothing else. So Barry was one of the people of many who really opened my eyes to this aspect of Chabad.�
Tzemach Atlas: Bryan, please clarify this point: �The story of the rescue and what the Rebbe did with it shows this characteristic of Chabad like nothing else.�
Bryan Mark Rigg: It basically means that the Rebbe of course wanted to escape Europe and had his movement employ every means, even approaching the Secretary of State, to get him out, but when he was here in the US, he did not approach those very same people to help rescue those who had to remain in Europe. However, he did approach those people in the government to rescue his library, which he did get out in 1941. Are books more important than people? Some of the books were secular like Dante's Inferno and books on Communism. This is a sad part of the history of the Rebbe. Also he started condemning people who were organizing amazing rescue efforts like rabbis Kotler and Kalmanowitz of the Vad-Haatzala.
He claimed they and Reform and Kofrim Jews were causing the Holocaust with their non-Kosher ways. Yet, we see that Kotler and Kalmanowitz helped rescue up to 100,000 people with the War Refugee Board. The Rebbe felt they were unnecessarily compromising their religious integrity by meeting with politicians on the Sabbath and secular and reform leaders. So the Rebbe made mistakes and according to Chancellor or Yeshiva University, Norman Lamm, he committed blasphemy by claiming God was punishing the Jews for their sins with the Holocaust. He claims this is a desecration of God's name (Menachem Mendel Schneerson also said that saying such a thing is a desecration of God's name without mentioning his father-in-law). These facts and many more show how much Chabad does to ignore unpleasant facts about their history. They just claim that when people write such things, they are jealous of their movement, do not understand their people or on a political campaign to smear them. Very weak arguments and signs of inferiority complexes. So basically this story shows that instead of pointing fingers, we need to act and make a difference. Small minds blame others; big ones blame themselves and then seek out action to make the situation better.
What people wanted was a hero of the Jewish people fighting for their rights. Instead, the Rebbe just thought of himself and his movement and condemned others. He was not helping the problem, but creating more. He should have worked with Kotler and Kalmanowitz, or at least have tried to, instead of condemning them and a host of others.
Does this help to clarify things? I send you an email earlier saying you may use my email, but it bounced back.
I hope all is well,
Bryan
posted by Tzemach Atlas at 7:30 PM
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